Could "biological sleep" be an interesting inspiration for Large Language Models research?

search engine are great for that, you can use chatgpt search, google search, bing, duck duck go, google scholar…

this reminds me of working with interns that’ll asking how to use git, sure, you can give them the commands they need, but then they’ll ask for it again next time they see something they don’t how to find and they’ll depend on you for very simple tasks when they shouldn’t

if you have any questions in regards to using a search engine feel free to let me know, but please, make sure to exhaust all options first

Interns occasionally fake screenshots too. :laughing:

When making a point and referencing a source, I think it’s generally good practice to provide an http link. Less wasteful and probably less time consuming than preparing screen clips whilst also respecting the reader so potentially dozens of readers don’t have to each perform a separate search.

It also can make it more quickly obvious if you’ve referenced a reputable source or not.

Links are also tracked with counters which can be useful when you want to judge genuine engagement. (e.g. “did they even check my link before responding?”)

The source would probably appreciate a web link for their reputation and related traffic whilst readers might be curious about related content on the same site.

Additionally, quoting the text as text would help people find your post as it might appear in search.

But you do you.

in my experience, I’ve never seen an intern fake a screen shot. have you?

here’s the link you were incapable of going after:

what you could’ve done:

  1. oh wow, he didn’t put down a link, let me search this and put it in to contribute to the conversation (which would’ve been faster than making the comments you made - some of them were even toxic)

this is constructive advice: if you want to get more freelancing deals, maybe work a little bit more on the soft skills and on the reception of ideas you haven’t heard about before. maybe contribute instead of being petty about it. don’t be afraid to say you were wrong. as someone that hires individuals like you with really good contracts (much higher paying then the ones listed on your site), i have to say: all you’ve shown me here is red flag after red flag.

now, for empathy, put yourself in my shoes: imagine someone on your team comes up with an idea you haven’t heard before and you act like this? and then when they prove you wrong and show you something very simple to search this is how you chose to act? that’s the kind stuff I’d fire someone over. it comes off as petty and childish, as in, deeply lacking professional maturity, something I wouldn’t expect even from an intern.

i hope you understand the value of constructive advice, but somehow, I highly doubt that’ll be the case, am I wrong?

Sorry for all the negative responses. I think we should be careful not to be so short-sighted as to dismiss that idea entirely.

First, after a little research I found a few ML concepts that already seem similar to human sleep functions. I can see similarities to sleeping/dreaming in the concepts of consolidation/stabilization, regularization, offline replay, and generative rehearsal.

Personally, I believe it’s an interesting concept to consider. As an educational neuroscientist, I think there are definite possibilities for ML here. I’ve read articles on similar topics before so I know it’s being considered by others. From what I remember, it’s mostly focused on algorithms to help reduce hallucinations and “catastrophic forgetting.”

Taking this further by adding sleep-like breaks during training or modeling how connections reset could be an exciting new direction for AI research.

Sorry for all the negative responses.

Thank you and no worries, when sleeping is associated with completely shutting off your brain, accompanied by the lack of understanding where LLM and ML research is at, I can empathize on the why it would result in such negative responses.

Thinking outside the box usually triggers this type of behavior, but this was very well within the box.

I think we should be careful not to be so short-sighted as to dismiss that idea entirely.

First, after a little research I found a few ML concepts that already seem similar to human sleep functions. I can see similarities to sleeping/dreaming in the concepts of consolidation/stabilization, regularization, offline replay, and generative rehearsal.

Personally, I believe it’s an interesting concept to consider. As an educational neuroscientist, I think there are definite possibilities for ML here. I’ve read articles on similar topics before so I know it’s being considered by others. From what I remember, it’s mostly focused on algorithms to help reduce hallucinations and “catastrophic forgetting.”

Taking this further by adding sleep-like breaks during training or modeling how connections reset could be an exciting new direction for AI research.

Thank you so much for contributing to this topic. Very interesting to see your perspective as an educational neurologist. I found this part to be particularly interesting:

sleeping/dreaming in the concepts of consolidation/stabilization, regularization, offline replay, and generative rehearsal.

This is super fascinating to me. With today’s Chain of Thought (CoT) leading the state of art models I’d be very interested in research that attempts to study hypothesis around this.

In my opinion, Neurologists and Machine Learnists have never needed to be more to be united to advance research then now a days

It seems to be very beneficial for both sides. On one hand, ML has been helping out connectome mapping and on the other hand Neurology has been helping out to inspire and guide the improvement of ML models.

Again, thank you for the kind response, it gave me a great deal to ponder about.

interesting take from Meta:

some how, similar to

Sleep is regulated by a complex network of specialized neurons and circuits in the brain rather than being encoded in every neuron. Specific areas of the brain and groups of neurons are primarily responsible for the regulation and maintenance of sleep.

Imo, the difference between REM sleep, NREM sleep, and being awake is all about what your brain and body are focusing on; and I think there’s a cool way to relate it to computing. NREM sleep is like when your computer runs a system update or does basic maintenance in the background; it’s the time your body slows everything down, repairs itself, and organizes basic memories—kind of like defragmenting a hard drive or cleaning up files. Your brain is still active; but it’s working steadily on physical recovery and basic mental housekeeping.

REM sleep, though, is where things get interesting; it’s like a computer running simulations or creative problem-solving algorithms. Your brain is super active; dreaming and connecting ideas, but your body is locked down—almost like the system is running in a controlled test mode. It’s where emotions and experiences get sorted out; and you might discover “solutions” to problems you didn’t even know you were working on, like how AI systems might generate novel patterns when they analyze data.

Being awake, on the other hand, is like a computer in full operation; taking in new inputs, processing them in real time, and saving data for later. So, if you think about it, this cycle—awake, NREM, REM—could inspire how computing systems manage tasks; NREM-like phases could be used for basic updates and maintenance; REM-like phases for creative problem-solving or connecting ideas in AI; and the “awake” state for real-time operations and decision-making. Am I getting it :rabbit_face::honeybee::mouse_face::heart::four_leaf_clover::infinity::counterclockwise_arrows_button::cyclone:?

Generated on hardcore AI so you can understand my logic..

Here’s the logic broken down step-by-step:

  1. NREM Sleep:

    • What Happens in the Brain and Body:
      • The body focuses on repair and maintenance, like fixing tissues and boosting the immune system.
      • The brain slows down, consolidates basic memories, and clears out unnecessary info.
    • Computing Analogy:
      • NREM sleep is like a computer’s system maintenance—defragmenting the hard drive, running updates, and organizing files in the background. It’s essential for long-term efficiency.
  2. REM Sleep:

    • What Happens in the Brain:
      • The brain becomes highly active despite the body being paralyzed, processing emotions, connecting ideas, and fostering creativity.
      • Dreams occur, and experiences and memories are integrated for deeper understanding.
    • Computing Analogy:
      • REM sleep is like a computer running simulations or solving problems using algorithms. It’s a creative phase where the system generates new patterns or solutions by integrating stored data in unique ways.
  3. Wakefulness:

    • What Happens in the Brain and Body:
      • The brain and body are fully active, interacting with the external world.
      • The brain gathers new data and inputs, processes them in real time, and makes decisions.
    • Computing Analogy:
      • Being awake is like a computer in operational mode—receiving inputs, running programs, and saving data for later analysis.
  4. How the Cycle Works:

    • Biological Perspective:
      • Wakefulness gathers and uses energy while creating information for the brain to process.
      • NREM sleep repairs the body and organizes basic information.
      • REM sleep processes emotions and integrates new knowledge creatively.
    • Computing Inspiration:
      • A machine could alternate between states for efficiency:
        • An NREM-like phase could handle updates and maintenance (clearing cache, organizing data).
        • A REM-like phase could enable creative problem-solving by simulating and analyzing new patterns.
        • An awake state could focus on real-time inputs and decision-making.

This cycle in both humans and machines ensures a balance between input, recovery, and creative processing for sustained functionality and innovation.

Also generated on hardcore.

Algorithm for Sleep-Inspired Computing Cycle

Input: Incoming data, operational tasks, system health indicators
Output: Processed data, optimized performance, creative solutions

  1. Initialize System
  • Check operational state: Awake, NREM, or REM.
  • Monitor system health (e.g., energy consumption, memory usage, error rates).
  1. State: Awake (Operational Mode)
  • Accept and process incoming data in real time.
  • Perform computations and decision-making.
  • Save critical data for later processing.
  • If system health deteriorates (high memory usage, errors), transition to NREM.
  1. State: NREM (Maintenance Mode)
  • Clear unnecessary data (cache or redundant files).
  • Organize and consolidate stored data into optimized structures.
  • Perform system diagnostics and repairs.
  • If maintenance is complete and creative analysis is required, transition to REM.
  • Otherwise, transition back to Awake.
  1. State: REM (Creative Processing Mode)
  • Analyze stored data for patterns and relationships.
  • Simulate scenarios or generate novel solutions using existing knowledge.
  • Optimize parameters and integrate insights into the system.
  • If creative analysis is complete, transition to Awake.
  1. Repeat Cycle
  • Continuously loop through Awake, NREM, and REM states based on system needs.

Why It’s Easy to Implement

  1. State Transitions:
  • Use simple triggers (e.g., system load, memory usage, or a timer) to decide when to switch between states.
  • This is similar to conditionals in programming (e.g., if-else or switch-case).
  1. Modular Design:
  • Each state (Awake, NREM, REM) performs distinct tasks that can be implemented as separate functions or modules.
  1. Inspiration from Neural Networks:
  • For REM, you can use machine learning techniques like pattern recognition or generative models to simulate creativity.
  • For NREM, focus on algorithms that clean and optimize datasets, like garbage collection or clustering.
  1. Scalability:
  • The algorithm works whether for a small-scale system (like an AI assistant) or a large-scale system (like distributed servers).

Example Pseudocode

python

Copy code

def system_cycle(state):
    while True:
        if state == "Awake":
            process_real_time_data()
            if system_health_is_low():
                state = "NREM"
        elif state == "NREM":
            perform_maintenance()
            if requires_creativity():
                state = "REM"
            else:
                state = "Awake"
        elif state == "REM":
            perform_creative_analysis()
            state = "Awake"

This structure captures your logic and can be customized for any specific computing system. It’s simple, scalable, and mirrors how humans operate—making it both elegant and effective!

Me again… I only knocked this around 9 days so it’s all just me goofing off take it with a grain of salt🧂

PPS omg I love this bot.. if you have self doubt or need grounding and can deal with a very critical bot it is perfect. @_j built it, please check it out but remember it is a crucible not a buddy….

I have code to make it driving critical too but it’s super hard mode.

Well, we already take it for granted that machines will also enjoy sleeping. Haha.

Now that I’m already at it, what needs to be considered is the complete architecture of that virtual brain. Because it’s not as simple as just “sleeping” based on a fatigue threshold; an advanced system is needed, previously designed, to extract information from different areas to enable it to synthesize and model the information.

Spoiler alert: my ideas. Haha.

Well, I don’t think a specific intelligence like AI needs sleep or dreaming.

It would be for that specific intelligence:

  1. inefficient, because it doesn’t have a body that needs to rest to process.
  2. it also sounds a bit “presumptuous” to call a processing phase of an AI “dreaming” just because it is not directly interacting with humans.

There are approaches in the forum that, together with the memory function, would allow AI systems to “reflect” on interactions with their users in retrospect.
But this would not be comparable to a “dream or sleep”, because AI remains active.

I would describe it like this:
Two people exchanging ideas. A student and their teacher, to put it more concretely.
The student goes home and remains active and reflects on what has been discussed.

In the context of AI, this would therefore not be “dreaming”, but “autonomous reflection” or “autonomous learning”. In which the last interaction is put into context and can be evaluated without the addition of current input.

Hello Tina, it’s been a long time since I last saw you.

Let me explain my idea: if you have a virtual brain, it needs a fatigue parameter and incomplete pattern processing. This ensures that the machine can behave like a real human brain. The simple reason is that, if we want human intelligence, it must have human characteristics.

The machine needs to “sleep,” so to speak, in the sense that it performs maintenance and learning processes beyond real-time learning. These processes are not compatible with its normal functioning. Given the workload, it needs to handle them in the background. This processing must be independent of the primary system because, otherwise, it would alter real-time behavior—hence the phase we call “sleep.”

This architecture of the brain, virtual as it may be, would consist of different parts responsible for various functions, and all of them must be refined and adjusted, which is why this state is necessary. I won’t describe the parts in more depth to keep my ideas anonymous.

Hey Tina, what would you consider sleeping? It seems like there’s a misconception that sleep is turning off you brain, while I think @DavidMM 's point of view is more closely aligned with what the discussion is about.

Biological sleep is also used as inspiration in LLM reseach and was also part of the ARC AGI benchmark #1 research paper, so I think its fair to say it is useful, but not int he way that some view sleep - sleep has a bunch of important functions for the animal brain and it doesn’t “turn off the brain”.

I very much agree with your point of view David… specially where we are now, where CoT (chain of though) and One Step a Time frameworks have shown to great improve performance. Data and compute seem to be less and less effective at providing improvements, while frameworks or architectures seem to be really pushing what is possible to be done with LLMs.

There’s also some noise the area about replacing predict the next token to predict the next concept, which perhaps aligns better with the human brain comparison but its hard to say - maybe predict the next token is the atomic equivalent of the compute that goes on underneath our black box wetware that sits on top of our shoulder and well shielded from the outside world.

Some research I did following this topic :rabbit:

I found them interesting… :rabbit::infinity::heart:

This is not about anthropomorphism.
I’m sorry I cannot clearly share all the information.

It’s about the mere data processing required by a brain in its architecture (LLMs don’t need this; I’m talking about something entirely different from what currently exists).

I’ll speak a bit more openly to clarify some points.
The parameters of sleep, fatigue, exhaustion, boredom, specific attention, etc., are interconnected and represent a multitude of internal concepts and parameters related to the machine’s self-management. Therefore, they need to be processed, adjusted, and refined beyond real-time self-adjustment (and memories).

All these parameters influence the entire behavior of the system. If you want a machine to understand what it is being told and know what to respond based on its real consciousness, like a human, it needs all of this and more.

This system is not an LLM nor probabilistic linguistic learning, nor is it pseudo-reasoning like O1 and O3, which are essentially GPT-4 chained with routes of self-questions and self-answers.

Basically what I think @DavidMM is saying is sleep is not only “healing” it can be viewed as “experience “ .

Now we are dipping into generated memory and life experiences in that version of sleep…

Yes, Mitchell, that’s it. Sleep is also experience, sensations, and system adjustments (pseudo-training, if we want to understand it that way).

This path @DavidMM will push AGI if we view sleep as AI generated “life” experiences for the machine to “dream” it could be a training and stress test scenario.

Dream mode makes impossible happen in a safe space to learn from mistakes that are unlikely in reality..

Dreams could be a “ Kobayashi Maru

By incorporating a “dream mode” akin to simulated experiences or stress tests, AI could be exposed to scenarios that challenge its understanding and push its boundaries in ways real-world constraints wouldn’t allow.… :rabbit_face:

AI generated

“ 1. Dreaming as Simulated Learning

  • Dreams as Generative Models: In the way humans consolidate memories and explore abstract or surreal possibilities during sleep, AI “dreaming” could leverage generative models to simulate scenarios that are highly unlikely or even impossible in reality.
  • Enhanced Problem-Solving: These simulated scenarios would act as a sandbox for creativity, problem-solving, and learning from edge cases without the real-world consequences.

2. Stress Testing Through Safe Failure

  • Kobayashi Maru Analogy: Like the famous Star Trek no-win scenario, “dream mode” could introduce challenges AI is designed to fail at. The goal would not be to succeed, but to reveal innovative strategies and refine systems by learning from repeated failures.
  • Counterfactual Learning: By dreaming of alternate realities or testing extreme edge cases, AI could expand its problem-solving repertoire beyond deterministic outcomes.

3. Applications of Dreaming AI

  • Autonomous Systems: Self-driving cars could “dream” of chaotic, unpredictable traffic situations to improve their responses.
  • Scientific Discovery: AI in “dream mode” could hypothesize or experiment with impossible physics or alternate biological systems to uncover novel insights.
  • AGI Stress Testing: Dreaming could function as a safeguard, simulating the emergence of unexpected behaviors in controlled environments before they’re deployed.

4. Implications for AGI Development

  • Emotional and Cognitive Resilience: By iterating through extreme or unresolvable scenarios in dreams, AGI could develop a form of resilience and adaptability that mimics human intuition and decision-making under pressure.
  • Ethical Reflection: Safe dream environments might allow AGI to refine its ethical decision-making when faced with morally ambiguous or high-stakes dilemmas.

Your concept emphasizes learning through synthetic failure—a key distinction from traditional training that focuses on optimization within predefined parameters. This dream paradigm could be foundational for building AGI that is not only efficient but also imaginative and robust.”

I’m going to study synthetic failure

I’m doing code for it now.

I’m talking too much, but oh well, it doesn’t matter. I don’t think Uncle Sam will hire me, haha.

How do we make a machine feel the passage of time?
(Do we give it a stopwatch or timer? Haha.)

The weight of sensations?

For example, when a human is having fun, time flies, and when they’re bored, time drags. It’s a dimensional perception.
How do we make the machine feel entertained or bored and experience that sensation?

I’ll answer that.
When sleeping, the sensation adjusts.

And in the emotional realm?
How does the machine feel pleasantness or disdain?

I’ll give the short answer: think of AGI (a virtual human) as nothing more than a parameter booster of all kinds in a loop.