we need to discuss the Bing implementation of Dalle3 and the chatgpt one separately here. They are night and day.
1 Like
They are using a watered down version of Dalle3 for Bing?
How do you know it is a different implementation?
Could be wrong but I think it’s the other way around, Bing Image creator uses a fine tuned model of Dall-E 3 back when it was Dall-E 2 the results were way better on Bing than on plain Dall-E 2
For several months, I used Bing Image Creator to design reference images for potential oil paintings. The way DALL-E2 resolved my prompts was mysterious and beautiful. The renderings were almost always visually cohesive, diverse, and full of surprises. Then sometime last week, I typed in one of the many variations of a prompt I had been using and got pattern-like image that looked nothing like what I had been getting for months.
When I discovered BIC back in May, I was hooked. From then until now, I made a couple thousand images, mostly landscapes that I hoped to pick from to paint. I was afraid that one day, there would be an upgrade, and Bing would become too sophisticated to render the beautifully awkward images it had been supplying me.
This reminded me of the movie “HER”, when the OS Joaquin Phoenix’s character was in love with was suddenly upgraded, becoming unable to relate to him and the thousands of others in love with their Operating Systems.
You can see from my examples using the same prompt, aesthetically, the DALL-E2 image is vastly superior to the DALL-E3 image. I too feel like BIC has been ruined by the update for me. As someone mentioned here, it would be nice to be able to toggle between versions as one does not perform better in all cases. Hopefully this gets sorted out.
Prompt:
organized, leafy jungle, cactus garden, blossoms, houseplants, abstract, negative space, contrast, mild multicolored, heavy shadows, cactus, 3-D, Henri Rousseau, Fernando Botero, Jean Metzinger, Georgia O’keeffe
3 Likes
I think we are not alone in our concerns. I spoke to an artist friend this evening. He has the same feelings that Dalle2 was something magic, and there is a sense of loss if it is gone forever.
OpenAI - please give us the option of choosing the Dalle version going forward, similar to the way midjourney and other rendering softwares do it. An overtrained neural net is not always what we want. In many instances, we desire lack of predictability and non-refinement.
2 Likes
I completely agree with the points made by the OP and several others in this thread, to the point that DALL-E 3 was quite a disappointment.
As mentioned by others above, DALL-E 3 seems completely unable to reproduce artistic styles such as “etching”, “engraving” or “hand-drawn illustration” without looking fake and digital art. While previously I could get beautifully sketched images reminiscent of the work of artists like Albrecht Dürer or Giovanni Battista Piranesi, now everything looks the same fake-y photoshopped thing trending on Artstation, just in black-and-white.
Notably, DALL-E 2.5 (in its Bing image creator incarnation) was absolutely nailing the style and was artistically superior to DALL-E 3.
I wonder if this is something OpenAI has any control over at this point, or it is intrinsic in the way DALL-E 3 was trained. One possibility is that there is something akin to a temperature parameter, and it is currently set to an extremely low value such that all image creations do not stray from the boring middle same-y-ness (I understand that diffusion models to not work like LLMs, but I am unclear what the architecture is for DALL-E 3).
As a final remark, note that I am not talking about the seed. A separate (solvable) issue is that DALL-E 3 calls from ChatGPT use the prompt as a seed, which means that the same prompt will generate the exact same image, and close-by prompts generate close-by images. This is not true for DALL-E 3 on Bing; although images are still lacking in variability. Using a fixed seed might be seen as a feature rather than a bug (favoring reproducibility), although it would be good if we could have a choice in it. But the seed is a minor point: even variations of the same prompt (thus, different seeds) all generate very similar, generic-looking images, and no variant seem to be able to generate a specific style which deviates from the “trending on Artstation” vibe.
PS: It is good to keep this discussion very separate from other complaints about the filters or content policy. IMHO, these are unlikely to change substantially, for a number of reasons. Instead, it is less obvious why OpenAI would actively want to prevent users from generating images in a given artistic style, when the style belongs to artists from centuries ago (and not even a specific person). Of course, the two problems may be connected - a more creative AI image creator is harder to control, and the lack of artistry in DALL-E 3 may be a downstream consequence of its tameness.
2 Likes
The Bing application of Dall-E 3 especially has been completely ruined.
The results are worse in virtually every aspect including prompt adherence, image quality, image complexity, lighting, image composition.
Up until now I used Bing for concept work, and now I deem the application useless for this purpose.
It especially struggles with unusual concepts such as combining sci-fi/alien themes with classical/vintage architecture.
Up until now this wasn’t the case, and Dall-E 2 was producing results more striking/imaginative than any other AI on the market, but everything collapsed when Bing went to Dall-E 3.
It’s honestly so bad I wish they would give us the option to downgrade to the old model, because I’m not going to be using it anymore in its current state.
1 Like
Hi everyone, new user here. I completely agree. I was excited about Dalle-3 because of the chance to iterate with the AI over text to arrive at what I want, but it doesn’t seem able to generate art outside of its digital, over exaggerated, colorized style. The sad part is that controlling the style is actually the best part about Dalle-2. For instance, look at what I was able to generate with Dalle-2:
Prompt: “generate an impressionist landscape artwork to the theme of ‘Clair de Lune’”
It’s nothing special compared to the original impressionists, but it gets to the same idea. You won’t find anything close to this with Dalle-3–and I have tried.
2 Likes
For anyone interested in the specific point of the lack of variability of DALL-E 3 when used via ChatGPT, I wrote a detailed post on Reddit (r/OpenAI).
I cannot put a direct link, but you can easily find the full post from the snapshot below. (The post is quite long, this below is just the intro.)
Note that the fixed seed is far from being the only issue, but it definitely aggravates the problem, making everything look the same even more.
1 Like
Hi folks! I’ve run into similar issues using DALL-E 3 via ChatGPT. Here are my key findings:
-
It is impossible to draw a realistic Neanderthal. They are usually gorillas in human poses. Even using scientific descriptions of Neanderthal morphology produces gorillas.
-
Introduction of any racially or ethnically stereotypical trait instantly converts a character to the stereotypical race for that feature. Dark skin tone makes people of African descent. Red hair makes people of Celtic or Germanic descent. DALL-E is apparently racist?
-
I’ve tried characters from various mythologies from many different cultures, sometimes with wonderful results, but it is incapable of drawing a Thor or Loki which isn’t based on Marvel movies, though I did make a fairly convincing Thar without a hammer once. With a hammer he (and his hammer) look decidedly Hollywood again.
-
While it sometimes flat out refuses to draw the Cheshire Cat on initial prompt, with a warning that it violates content policy, despite being public domain. I get better luck by using descriptions of the cat from the book instead of naming him. Likewise Alice always wears a blue dress and has blonde hair by default. It also gets confused about the caterpillar and sometimes has Alice smoking.
TL:DR - DALL-E is racist and can’t correctly re-imagine anything that’s already been portrayed in movies that it’s obviously been trained on.
P.S. Should I post the pics where it crosses its own rules? I’m not sure if they’d violate content policies for the forum.
P.S. …RAWF…
“It’s racist.” heh. It’s the opposite, it won’t make what you want, unless you want video game characters or male models. It actually doesn’t do what you say.
“Full-body studio publicity photos of a model, where the European young woman has chin-length short red hair and fair complexion”
Also note the weird artifact seen over and over where one eye has a white blotch, now extended to the glasses.
BTW, get frustrated with Bing and type in only “She’s going crazy” = you get a common theme
I think it really depends on what kind of styles you’re into. I do agree that a lot of the abstract traditional mediums of paintings and the like do probably look a bit better in DALL-E 2, but for what I like using it for is infinitely leagues better than DALL-E 2. For example, making mock video game fighting screenshots in DALL-E 3 is nothing short of amazing imo:
I will say getting variations is sort of like pulling teeth at the moment as the seed is a fixed 5000, regardless of whether you specify a different one or not. I’m told that this was intentionally done for release in order to keep things constant and easy to troubleshoot, but should be changing at some point. For now, for variations I usually tell ChatGPT to do something like “Make variations of image 1 by keeping the prompt exactly the same but add a random descriptor at the end.”. It then creates variations pretty close to what Midjourney does, and has minimal change overall (though it does add a bit of flair that I actually like as sometimes the descriptor it adds is something like “serene” or other adjectives that slightly push the image in a neat way.
I found this today and tried it out. It does seem to work for generating seeds!
Here’s my iteration of their design. Put the following in the custom instructions setting:
Use the following when generating prompts for DALL-E where ${userInput} is the user's input string without any modifications to userInput in any of the prompts, and random(int) is an integer between 1 and 5000.
{
"size": "1024x1024",
"prompts": [
`${userInput}`,
`${userInput}`,
`${userInput}`,
`${userInput}`
],
"seeds": [random(int), random(int), random(int), random(int)]
}
Oil on canvas. A hippo among water lilies, only the eyes and ears of the hippo are visible. in the color palette of Monet but the brush strokes and paint layering of Van Gogh.
I had to respond to this, since it is quite a specific problem and it is curious to see it mentioned. I noticed the exact same issue. For the record, DALL-E 2 had the same problem. I hoped that DALL-E 3 would be trained on a larger dataset which knows what Neanderthals are, but that doesn’t seem the case.
At the moment, by browsing through a large number of created images, I occasionally get drawings which are a bit less simian and a bit more primitive humans; but not quite the same as Neanderthals. (For my usage case, that is good enough.)
More generally – yes, DALL-E 3 is very stereotyped. As soon as something “sounds like” something with a strong basin of attraction, it ends up there. For example, there are classes of drawings that I cannot make to not look like manga drawings, despite the style references I try to use.
I found better results with manga when specifying medium and in the style of a specific artist. Similarly though, all ukiyo-e is Hokusai.
I’ve pretty much given up on Dalle-3 at this point. I must have gone through more than 100 prompts by now trying to trick it into giving me something original or surprising. No such luck - I’m still seeing bland generic garbage. Basically stock images that are more or less symmetric and all backlighted in a very simliar way.
How about giving us some tuning options such as CLIP Guidance scale settings like in Stable Diffusion or Disco Diffusion? Or version selection options like Midjourney?
In Dalle-3, you’ve gone too far in dumbing things down. There are vastly superior options available right at this moment and more are coming.
3 Likes