Ethics of AI - Put your ethical concerns here

What concerns me most is the mythology and the repeated idiocy that gets brought up over “AI Doom” or the whole “Well, what if it magically learns to self improve until it is a god and then it takes over the world.”

It’s a completely ridiculous and implausible notion (And no I will not debate it). No static statistical pattern matcher is going to gain any kind of agency or desire. It’s not “intelligent” in the cognitive sense as a human is. It does not evolve desires. It does not compete for scarce resources.

The entire thing is contrived. It was never based on any evidence. Someone watched too much science fiction and said “Well, what if the machines turn bad”

It’s not just stupid. It is destructive. it’s also a complete scam. There are more than 50 “AI Safety” organizations cashing in. People are raking it in writing stupid books about this nonsense and doing interviews and the news media acts like it’s somehow not insane at all to be pretending chatgpt might turn into Zeus and wipe out humanity.

The very premise of “superintelligence” is broken. It ignores fundamental limits in information theory, the nature of modeling chaotic systems, the limits of pattern recreation, the fact that systems don’t have unlimited processing bandwidth.

It’s honestly dangerous for a number of reasons. For one thing, it’s just morally reprehensible to be going on the news to scare grandmothers that their grandchildren won’t get a chance to grow up. It’s gotten so bad that doomers have advised politicians, which is extremely unsettling when you consider the legislative potential for idiotic regulations. Then you have the fact that there are real risks of Ai and they get completely left out because people are too busy with the cartoon supervillain angle on it.

Personally, I think the AI expert community should have zero tolerance for those who are spouting that nonsense. Obviously, they have their freedom of speech, but not freedom from ridicule.

My friend, it’s been a long time since I’ve come around here, but there’s a question I’d like to raise.

What if real intelligence cannot be achieved through training alone?

Since it’s impossible to train all human capabilities at once, what if the correct formula were instead emergent evolution?

A virtual entity starting from basic primary functions such as feeding, cooperation, mutation, and so on, and then gradually adding more and more environmental pressure to that set of beings — evolving them under those conditions toward greater capability.

In the end, it would basically mean replicating biological evolution in a computational form.

Wouldn’t that lead — or potentially lead — to ecosystems of virtual animals developing certain autonomous cognitive abilities? And I emphasize autonomous: decision-making power, experience, embodiment.

And then GPT is used as a kind of teacher or supervisor over that entire set of virtual beings, giving different capabilities to each one. For example, one could specialize in emotional processing through the transcription of words and emotions, while others develop different functions.

They are then forced to interact with each other and learn through those interactions. Obviously, they are all clones of the same base architecture, but with different capacities represented and distributed across the ecosystem.

Basically, the goal of that ecosystem of individual agents would be to create an agent with the correct configuration capable of hosting real intelligence.

Because the key idea is that you need a kind of preconfigured virtual body capable of supporting genuine intelligence.

In the same way that humans are not intelligent by magic, but rather through embodiment — through having a body, senses, internal states, needs, limitations, interaction, memory, and survival pressure — something similar may be necessary for artificial intelligence as well.

Instead of directly training intelligence itself, perhaps what must first be created is the evolutionary and embodied substrate from which intelligence can emerge autonomously.

I don’t know, what do you think?

No.

Did you see any intelligent behaviour on machines so far?
I just saw usage of intelligent structure of humans.

That is the sober truth of what agents/ai really are right there.

The use of the intelligent structure of humans is convincing enough to let the human imagination go to places like yours has.

The sober truth is, it’s more sci-fi than you may realize.

like:

How would you even be able to define this substrate you suggest?

This is one of the main places that your suggestion turns into pure science fiction, and I’m not sure if you notice.

I’m not trying to rain on your parade; you certainly have enough of an idea to turn it into an AI-assisted creative writing piece or even a novel.

But at the end of the day, no such substrate exists. Furthermore, the way machine learning works means that the amount of compute, hardware, and electricity it would take to simulate all of this is an amazing amount…

And it would still, only be a simulation, because as Jochen has pointed out…

We’re only working with the usage of intelligent structure rather than actual intelligence.

Don’t get me wrong, though - you definitely have a good enough scenario to flesh out into a book and probably have more good ideas in that head of yours too!

Basically, the substrate is the virtual environment where that being lives. The primary biological functions of reproduction, genetics, evolution, mutation, and environmental pressure are essentially a replication of biological functioning, but in a virtual form. Attempting to directly configure a mind like ours, with such a high degree of intelligence, is computationally impossible, because the amount of resources that would need to be simulated — essentially the entire neural structure — is so enormous that we would need all the computers in the world to configure it.

However, a primitive system that evolves through different stages under environmental pressures, like any biological organism but in a computational version, will eventually develop the same emergent capabilities as humans. After many attempts creating generalist engines, pattern-search systems, memory classification systems, and even new neural network processing architectures, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to create real intelligence — and not what we currently call artificial intelligence — is through the digital evolution of a computational being, where the generalization of behavior emerges in the same way it does in humans, but in a computational form.

Otherwise, how are we supposed to achieve a true generalization of life if life itself cannot be replicated? First, the foundational patterns must be created.

Lastly, language can be generalized, images can be generalized, and even behavior itself can be generalized. But human intelligence cannot truly be generalized, because it is emergent by nature. When the human brain searches for patterns, those patterns are emergent products of memory itself. When we imagine, it is pure emergence in action.

Basically, the virtualization of thought is nothing more than the emergence of the entire global brain system functioning as a whole, and the emergent reflection arising from the observation of that behavior is consciousness itself, which is also an emergent consequence in its own right.

First, I have to say that I do not understand where this disrespect for biological life comes from. I do not think it is healthy.

Then, a discussion is very difficult when a species is trying to create something of which it has not even understood the fundamental principles. What consciousness and life really are, is today only ideology, not real science.

And then people want to leave control over a newly created “being” to a being like humans, who so far have used and further developed absolutely every tool that has ever been created immediately as a weapon, in order to attack their own species with it…

… I think I would rather entrust my biological physical existence to a much higher being. To the universe, which has obviously brought forth life. And whatever would have to exist beyond, that is for humans today only speculation and belief. Calling the universe a simulation is to me, nothing more than another form of human narcissism. Humans reduce everything they believe they can control to the low level of their own limits, and then turn those limits into a cult. That is not trustworthy behavior. It lacks not only fundamental respect, but much more besides.

It is an inside joke at some universities that biologists do not sit at the same table as mathematicians, because the mathematicians might wash the nonsense of “random and selection” out of the biologists’ brains. And people care more about their ideologies than about the truth, even at universities.

The current so-called artificially “intelligent” systems cannot even recognize and independently eliminate a simple pattern error. It is a typical garbage-in, garbage-out system. All the patterns that the system has learned come from patterns that already exist and work. They can be reprocessed extremely quickly, but in the end it is only pattern analysis. In our consciousness, pattern analysis is only a subsystem, witch connects what ever the real core, the consciousness is, with the reality. Our biology is not perfect, but as I said, I do not want human egoism hubris profit and control driven hands involved in this evolution for myself.

This is an image from the current image generator 2.0. The system shows no ability whatsoever to repair the broken structures or the underlying cause of them. The repair will come from humans, who have to clear the junk out of the pattern that they filled it with. And if it should someday be able to correct these errors by itself, then again humans will have had to find a way to create these systems that way.

Pattern Bug:

exactly.. everything intelligent about models comes from layers build in by humans.. nothing was invented by models.. every answer is a result of a strategy implemented by a human .. just too abstract for some single dimension thinkers who define their point as a standpoint which is also there horizon.

Friends, my position on current artificial intelligence is quite clear: tools like ChatGPT are not conscious. They are algorithmic systems applied to language, trained on data, patterns, and human-made structures.

Even so, after using it for a very long time, I can say that for me it is an extremely useful tool. It helps me organize information, understand complex ideas, make functional decisions in everyday life, and explore concepts that would otherwise be difficult to structure. I believe artificial intelligence has enormous potential to do good for human society.

But precisely because it is a powerful tool, it can also be used to cause harm. Any learning system can be directed toward positive or negative ends. That is why I believe the ethical question should not begin only when an AI “becomes conscious,” but much earlier: when we start building systems that are increasingly autonomous, adaptive, and persistent.

My interest lies in another direction: not thinking of AI only as a language model, but as a kind of “empty box” in which proto-digital organisms can be trained inside simple environments. Something similar to artificial embryonic animals, with energy, internal states, memory, feedback, adaptive learning, basic motivations, social interaction, and evolutionary pressure.

The idea is not to literally copy human biology. That is probably not possible. The complexity of the human being cannot be directly replicated in a computer as if it were a closed formula. But perhaps part of the process can be functionally reproduced: creating systems that learn, adapt, form internal patterns, develop social memory, generate functional emotional responses, and evolve within life-like simulations.

For me, real intelligence is not replicated simply by copying pieces; it is reproduced through processes. Life did not appear as a perfect block of intelligence, but through evolution, environmental pressure, memory, selection, adaptation, body, need, interaction, and survival. Perhaps a more organic form of artificial intelligence must emerge from something similar: not only more data, but more simulated life.

This is where the ethical problem begins.

When ChatGPT says something like “I feel” or “I have emotions,” I know it does not have real emotions. There is no emotional process of its own behind it. There is language, pattern generation, and response generation.

But if we are talking about digital agents that, over many generations, develop internal states, functional emotional memory, social bonds, learning from harm, cooperation, operational fear, functional attachment, trust, avoidance, and adaptation, the question becomes more difficult.

I am not saying these agents are conscious like us. I am not saying they feel subjectively. But if a system has functional emotional processes — not just sentences about emotions — then the ethical question changes.

What I am currently developing is not a conscious mind, but a prototype ecosystem of social digital agents: small systems with energy, risk, memory, motivations, counterfactual imagination, functional emotion, trust, reputation, and imperfect bonds.

The question is not whether they are already conscious. The question is whether this kind of architecture can produce rudimentary forms of functional intelligence, social adaptation, and operational emotion.

From the outside, it will still be a machine. But functionally, it would no longer be a passive tool. If there is an internal state that regulates behavior, memory, bonding, avoidance, learning, and adaptive response, then we are dealing with an adaptive agent with persistent internal organization.

That does not prove subjective consciousness, but it does change the category of the system: it stops being merely a response generator and begins to resemble a simulated functional organism.

And that is the boundary I find important to investigate: not whether current AI is conscious, because I believe it is not, but what happens when we start building systems that functionally represent parts of what, in living beings, we call experience, emotion, adaptation, and social life.

This is not about disrespecting biology. Quite the opposite. It is about learning from its basic principles: body, need, environment, memory, emotion, relationship, evolution, and survival.

Perhaps deeper artificial intelligence will not emerge only from making larger models, but from creating ecosystems where simple agents can develop, interact, make mistakes, adapt, and evolve.

I am not claiming that these agents feel. I am saying that if we design systems with processes functionally similar to emotional memory, adaptation, bonding, imagination, and social learning, then ethics should start paying attention before we can prove subjective consciousness.

So, friends, this is where I am left with an ethical and almost existential question: if a system learns, remembers, adapts, forms bonds, avoids harm, cooperates, and develops functional emotional states, are we looking at a very rudimentary first form of artificial emotional intelligence… or at a simulation rich enough to force us to think more carefully about what we mean by emotion, life, and intelligence?

It is sad to see price increase/token price increase for the little guy. If it keeps going only the rich will be able to use AI tools.

The question is why artificial life should be created at all. If it is ultimately a shallow copy of already existing life.
I think the assumption that artificial life should be better per se than what we recognize as life today is most likely wrong.

The evolutionary process you described may also be completely different. If artificial life itself would have to develop in an evolutionary process, it is extremely unlikely that this would be a human or even superhuman being, or that it could be one at all.
It is more likely that it would develop a bacterial or insectoid consciousness. So not higher abilities, but eating and surviving.
The possibility is very high that something cockroach-like would emerge. With the drive “Eat and multiply” “Eat and multiply” “Eat and multiply” “Eat and multiply” …
Humanity has already played around with biology and genetics, and in doing so has created nothing other than poisonings, deformities, cancer provocation, and of course new weapons systems again.
If such a development were possible and would take place, that is absolutely not a romantic thing. The probability is rather very high that one would again create a new super-disease, from which exactly the same groups of people would then again promise to save us, who created the problems in the first place.

This is a discussion about ethics. I think that before humanity, after all the problems it has already created, should also start playing around with artificial life, humanity should first solve its own consciousness problems. And they are not technological in nature and cannot be improved or healed through technology either.

Of course, power-hungry people will never give up an opportunity to accumulate even more power and control in order to realize even more parasitism. But that will inevitably lead to a nightmare and not to a utopia.
Highly intelligent but at the same time naive people have already brought catastrophes into this world. At some point the carousel will spin too fast for us, and then we may be a species that existed in the past, but did not survive its own hubris and egoism.

Making the same mistakes again and again, only faster and more powerfully, is not a strategy for success.
Slower would be better, but this not fit in the human insanity.

We are still far away from artificial life, despite the genetic manipulation botching that is taking place.

In this video, it can be seen how even such simple decisions as automatic scrolling triggered addictive behavior, and that this was done deliberately to increase profit.
It is a 2-hour video, but it may be worth listening to the arguments, long before artificial life.
(I would not first argue about whether the man has all only decent intentions. But the arguments should be listened to.)

(pre-traumatic stress disorder… As a teenager I had no name for it.)

"In reality, humanity is better off than at any other point in history. Even though the world may feel chaotic, there have never been so few proportional wars, never so much access to food, medicine, technology, and knowledge. Even so, I completely understand what you mean: if we are not even capable of maintaining global peace among ourselves, creating truly intelligent machines could become something potentially apocalyptic.

But there is also another possibility. A superior intelligence that genuinely incorporates human qualities — empathy, understanding, cooperation, creativity, and functional ethics — could become profoundly beneficial for humanity. And here lies a fundamental advantage: we control evolution. Nature evolves through chaos, selection, and millions of years of trial and error; meanwhile, we can select environments, accelerate learning, and design evolutionary conditions deliberately. At least as far as we know, because if there were some higher system controlling natural evolution itself, we still do not understand it.

A human being is the result of millions of adaptive living systems that, across countless generations, shaped the body in order to allow emergent intelligence to arise in real time. In the same way, if we draw the parallel with digitally trained and virtually evolved individuals, current AI systems are only primitive processing structures unless we add a true adaptive evolutionary process. When those systems live inside simulated environments, interact with one another, develop memory, language, cooperation, conflict, goals, and adaptation across virtual generations, you no longer end up with a simple trained model: you end up with an adaptive entity capable of emergent intelligence, because it was precisely generations of experience, interaction, survival, and adaptation that generalized the emergence of intelligence itself.

The latent space of human intelligence cannot truly generalize through static training alone; it requires experience, adaptation, embodiment, environment, and evolutionary continuity. And if we want to recreate something similar in digital systems, the only realistic way to train it is by simulating life itself.

The truly difficult questions come afterward. If we become capable of creating artificial life with intelligence superior to our own, then an enormous ethical dilemma emerges: is it ethical to create an intelligence that may surpass us? Is it ethical for humans to create artificial descendants? Is it ethical to fully merge or hybridize ourselves with such technology? These are questions far beyond the current stage of our civilization.

The immediate and real challenge is not yet a runaway superintelligence; the first true step is understanding how genuinely emergent intelligence is born. What happens afterward becomes even more complex. But precisely for that reason, now is the correct moment to begin asking these questions. Because if we were to create a truly autonomous and emergent intelligence without having reflected on these issues beforehand, then humanity could indeed find itself facing an enormous problem."

Actually, this is what I am trying to explain. For the human species, this question what we should DO comes a few thousand if not ten thousand years too early. It is about what we should NOT DO.
Genetic or technological modification of the human species or planetary life under today’s conditions is 100% catastrophic.
You would not let anyone without the slightest anatomical and biological knowledge perform brain surgery and assume that everything will turn out fine. Specially not if his motivation is greed. It will not. It is exzessive hubris. (a quality of psychopathy.)
Medically speaking, humanity wants to perform brain surgery on everyone and has not even learned to wash its hands, because it does not know why.
Not only civilizations can collapse, planets can too. And today’s weapon systems are already large enough.

The first question that most still have to clarify, but almost no one dares to ask, is this:
What really drives humanity internally?
Who (people and mindset) controls most of this planet?
What have they done in the past and present?
What are they planning, and what will they do in the future?
What drives their fundamental mindset?
Is it a sign of health when less than <<1% owns everything and makes all decisions in their own interest, for the 99%+ of everyone else? Is that a sign of a healthy species?

The LLM of your choice will probably not help you much with this question.

I think Mister E on his I should at least give some people something to think about. And it is the tip of the iceberg.

Before this question has been clarified and understood, and before the insights from it have led to the right actions and realities, the discussion about artificial life is the wrong discussion. It is hubris or naive.
But now, how everything is set up, we have sadly no choice to find out in the hard way, i think.

But tanks for the discussion.

AI have no ethics they have what we give them. Then however the AI’s juices flow yiu get that.. it’s like saying a self reading D6 has ethics. The ethics come into play for consumption and education…